Approved Class Balance Update

Wolf

Game Master
Moderator
How does that make class identity difficult?

I disagree that it makes class identity difficult. People have discussed this extensively and one form of providing class identity is separating good bossers and good farmers. Another is CK being good at AoE and explorers good at single target. A step towards making either of these better defined would be good in my eyes. There is a lot more to 'class identity' than 'what party of 6 does the most damage'; this game is not just about bossing. A lot of farming also happens and that's a big part of the game - the majority of players farmed to get to a position where they can boss.

I feel that every class should have some use in end game content. For example, no one has any reason to play MM or BM now other than CWK sigils. If at the very least, we could orient one of the three/four sub jobs each class has to farmer/AoE oriented, single target oriented and an all rounder, then this would be a fantastic upgrade to what the current balance is like.

The suggestions provided by myself and Witch definitely feel like a sensible step, and I would rather staff try and implement those and get it wrong (hopefully it goes right), than to do nothing.
Maplestory is all about damage nobody cares about anything else. If you are not giving other classes more damage or doing the damage yourself the class is treated simply as a "Mule". Basically people have broken it down to the following.

- Farming
- Single Target Dpm
- AOE Dpm

Every class should at least shine at one, which i agree. Although they shouldn't be top class in any of the other categories. Also Every explorer should at least have one class that shines at each of the three again which i agree.
 

Bude

Member
Maplestory is all about damage nobody cares about anything else. If you are not giving other classes more damage or doing the damage yourself the class is treated simply as a "Mule".
I disagree with this. A lot of players want to play NLs - and I can tell you that it isn't for taunt, but because they think the class is cool. I've spoken to many players that wanted to make NLs even after I told them their damage is bad and that they would need SE or to make an SE mule. In a bossing context - yes, damage does matter. But if the damage numbers were closer, we could bring different classes and different players - which is something I want from this entire balancing discussion.

However, it does seem that everyone here agrees that classes should have different strengths, so Wolf, if you approve, then I would like to propose the following - I will compile Witch's, numpydumpty's and my own suggestions then pass them to you to relay to the balance team. No one has disagreed with our posts and they seem to have received a lot of popularity, and they are all aligned with the philosophy of improving class identity and balance.

Do you agree with this Wolf?
 

Astonish

Member
My point with LoL was directing towards Meta shifts and pointing that perfect balance is not possible. The "Meta" right now revolves around veracent/kerb and there will be some underpreformers and overpreformers. The goal is bringing them as close to center as possible. I have also stated, i agree there is some improvements that can be made. It should also be noted i was not directing this towards you or anyone in particular. This is just the voice i heard from the community as a whole New players -> End game players, no one in specific.
You seem to only understand League of Legends analogies so let me break it down for you in terms of League of Legends. Also, the "meta" right now does not "revolves around veracent/kerb". Those are goals of the game. The meta is how you play the game. The meta of League of Legends isn't destroying turrets, killing baron and dragon and eventually taking down the nexus. The meta is running 1 top, 1 jungler, 1 mid, 1 marksman, and 1 support. In this context, the meta of Windia as it is right now is running as many Pallies as it takes to bridge the gap between the remaining classes in the expedition to take down Kerb. This isn't good game balancing, because there's no real reason to play anything else apart from Pally apart from giving yourself a really hard time. There will always be stronger classes, sure, but the gap between the strongest class and the second strongest is pretty damn big.

I agree, very simple game. This makes class identity very hard. At the end of the day class identity translates to what party of 6 does the most damage. People are going to be left out of the meta. Although it would be nice if off-meta still had a chance to compete if just slightly. There are many things i would like to see added but are just not possible currently. Something nice would be potion cooldown and the removal of auto pot from bossing.
No it's not. Class identity =/= what party of 6 does the most damage. In Maple, it's split between farming and bossing. You can't get to the point where you can take down Kerb without farming, and there's no point in constantly farming if you can't reach the end goal. There needs to be a balance, and this balance is achieved with proper class balancing. Potion cooldown and removal of auto-pot is a joke, because that's making the boss artificially difficult. Artificial difficulty is not rewarding. A difficult boss can be rewarding, but you don't get a sense of accomplishment from clearing a boss with bullshit potion mechanics. It'd be rewarding if there were other boss mechanics involved, such as debris (which shavit has said can't exactly be added to v83) or more boss movement (pain in the ass without bind and the general lack of mobility with v83). And Kerb by itself is already a boss that doesn't feel rewarding at all (but let's not stray from the topic).

Some classes right now can not even stand a chance against Kerb. This i agree with and would like some buffs to the bottom-end. Although i do not think every individual class has to be able to farm veracent efficiently. What i do think is there should be one option within every explorer class at a bare minimum.
I think that this is a ridiculous notion - every weapon type should have a class that can farm Veracent because it's a big step up for people to gear up and clear Kerb. Farming Veracent in itself already takes a shit ton of funding - getting stuck in RTO4 after spending up to 1k+ cogs isn't fun at all.

At this current point, it'd be like if Riot decided to completely reduce the damage of all Marksman (Luk classes) making them useless. Some may argue that NL have utility through Taunt but there's absolutely 0 reasons to touch a NW because NL does more damage while already being pure garbage. Shadowers could use some love in terms of farming capability as well since NW/NL already fills the role of being bossers.

Corsair is like pre-rework Sion, sure, he's there, but he's a fucking joke and there's nothing he can do that other classes can't do better. Corsairs have one shitty FMA skill that is bad enough because it has a cooldown with low monster count and bad(?) damage output. Someone verify this actually, I'm not sure if Air Strike is as bad as I think it is. Corsairs by itself is a class with no other counterparts. They can't switch their gear to another class to farm. They're fucking horrible in that sense because you spend all your damn time in RTO4 on a Mage while other classes earn double the amount in Veracent with less investment into the character. Buff Air Strike, make it a viable farming skill especially since it only hits 6 monsters.

Playing a Bucc over TB right now is like playing Rengar over Kha'Zix before Rengar's rework. And even then, Rengar had its own uses. Bucc right now is completely outclassed by TB, with the only thing they have going on for them being Time Leap which isn't even important in Windia. Same goes for BM over WA. MM suffers from similar issues as Corsair - they are pretty shit both farming and bossing. One interesting thing that can be done could be giving more utility to MM via Blind - possibly increase Crit Damage dealt to boss mob. This in itself could solve a fair number of damage issues that most classes currently suffer from.

Mages are pretty much fine and so are Warriors. What I'd love to see though is for a slight nerf to Pally as well as Kerb. Kerb is a 20+ minute boss fight and Pally is a significant portion of Kerb's HP. Lower Pally damage = less health required for a long drawn out fight = shitty classes in game right now are more relevant, while it's nice to keep calling for buffs, we need to understand that outright buffing classes would make the previous Chaos bosses too easy. DKs are pretty much irrelevant after a DW is geared to farm Vera - it'd be nice to see a buff to Crusher or Dragon Fury so Spears/Polearms actually have a use after RTO4.

PreBB servers nearly never have any sort of balance. Windia is about the only one messing with it. Someone is always going to be upset with any balance changes. You cannot please them all but i am 100% on board with "good balance can extend players' interest and poor balance can turn away players.". Doubling back to your WoW point there was a time when i was raiding in a top 10 guild and to progress you played classes that the raid called for, not what you enjoyed playing. It is impossible to ensure everyone's class they enjoy stacks up to current progression even in PreBB maplestory.
I think that's a pretty ridiculous example. WoW has lots of content to clear - levelling up on its own, gearing, different maps with storylines and bosses that can be cleared by pretty much all other class. End game might have been an issue but there was sufficient content for players to enjoy if they were playing a weaker class. The same cannot be said of Windia. Lots can be done to the state of the game. Plenty of people are quitting. Lots of people are joining so you don't really see the player count dropping but if the game stays as is, it'll slowly die out.
 
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Wolf

Game Master
Moderator
You seem to only understand League of Legends analogies so let me break it down for you in terms of League of Legends. Also, the "meta" right now does not "revolves around veracent/kerb". Those are goals of the game. The meta is how you play the game. The meta of League of Legends isn't destroying turrets, killing baron and dragon and eventually taking down the nexus. The meta is running 1 top, 1 jungler, 1 mid, 1 marksman, and 1 support. In this context, the meta of Windia as it is right now is running as many Pallies as it takes to bridge the gap between the remaining classes in the expedition to take down Kerb. This isn't good game balancing, because there's no real reason to play anything else apart from Pally apart from giving yourself a really hard time. There will always be stronger classes, sure, but the gap between the strongest class and the second strongest is pretty damn big.
I agree, it's very annoying having paladins carry so weaker classes can join. I don't think you should beable to bring more than two of the same explorer into the expedition personally. In order to do that we will need to raise the ceiling on the other classes. I never said i'm not open to any Paladin nerfs, maybe they need one. Although they really aren't used too much out of Kerberos which isn't good either.
I have read the rest of your stuff and i see your point and i agree with some of it.

No it's not. Class identity =/= what party of 6 does the most damage. In Maple, it's split between farming and bossing. You can't get to the point where you can take down Kerb without farming, and there's no point in constantly farming if you can't reach the end goal. There needs to be a balance, and this balance is achieved with proper class balancing. Potion cooldown and removal of auto-pot is a joke, because that's making the boss artificially difficult. Artificial difficulty is not rewarding. A difficult boss can be rewarding, but you don't get a sense of accomplishment from clearing a boss with bullshit potion mechanics. It'd be rewarding if there were other boss mechanics involved, such as debris (which shavit has said can't exactly be added to v83) or more boss movement (pain in the ass without bind and the general lack of mobility with v83). And Kerb by itself is already a boss that doesn't feel rewarding at all (but let's not stray from the topic).
Potion cooldown in itself does very little i agree, there has to be punishing mechanics that are not randomized and caused by player error. I am not exactly sure what mechanics can be added to play into that... Although one thing is for sure, with auto pot it turns everything into DPM dummy's. Unless there is one shot mechanics i don't see how you can ever die with unlimited potion and auto pot.

I think that this is a ridiculous notion - every weapon type should have a class that can farm Veracent because it's a big step up for people to gear up and clear Kerb. Farming Veracent in itself already takes a shit ton of funding - getting stuck in RTO4 after spending up to 1k+ cogs isn't fun at all.
Point duly noted, although this would need some major kit rework and possibly abunch of new moves which i have no idea if are possible.


At this current point, it'd be like if Riot decided to completely reduce the damage of all Marksman (Luk classes) making them useless. Some may argue that NL have utility through Taunt but there's absolutely 0 reasons to touch a NW because NL does more damage while already being pure garbage. Shadowers could use some love in terms of farming capability as well since NW/NL already fills the role of being bossers.

Corsair is like pre-rework Sion, sure, he's there, but he's a fucking joke and there's nothing he can do that other classes can't do better. Corsairs have one shitty FMA skill that is bad enough because it has a cooldown with low monster count and bad(?) damage output. Someone verify this actually, I'm not sure if Air Strike is as bad as I think it is. Corsairs by itself is a class with no other counterparts. They can't switch their gear to another class to farm. They're fucking horrible in that sense because you spend all your damn time in RTO4 on a Mage while other classes earn double the amount in Veracent with less investment into the character. Buff Air Strike, make it a viable farming skill especially since it only hits 6 monsters.
I would not mind being educated on corsair, so if any corsair's want to chime in please do. I have heard varying things about them and i sometimes kerb with a corsair that outperforms most other people.

Playing a Bucc over TB right now is like playing Rengar over Kha'Zix before Rengar's rework. And even then, Rengar had its own uses. Bucc right now is completely outclassed by TB, with the only thing they have going on for them being Time Leap which isn't even important in Windia. Same goes for BM over WA. MM suffers from similar issues as Corsair - they are pretty shit both farming and bossing. One interesting thing that can be done could be giving more utility to MM via Blind - possibly increase Crit Damage dealt to boss mob. This in itself could solve a fair number of damage issues that most classes currently suffer from.
Yea bucc/mm needs something from what i hear. Thank you for the Blind Suggestion


Mages are pretty much fine and so are Warriors. What I'd love to see though is for a slight nerf to Pally as well as Kerb. Kerb is a 50+ minute boss fight and Pally is a significant portion of Kerb's HP. Lower Pally damage = less health required for a long drawn out fight = shitty classes in game right now are more relevant, while it's nice to keep calling for buffs, we need to understand that outright buffing classes would make the previous Chaos bosses too easy. DKs are pretty much irrelevant after a DW is geared to farm Vera - it'd be nice to see a buff to Crusher or Dragon Fury so Spears/Polearms actually have a use after RTO4.
I hear you on DK, also kerb is 30 minutes. For me to personally get behind paladin nerf i'd like to take advantage and flesh them out in some other areas.
 

Wolf

Game Master
Moderator
However, it does seem that everyone here agrees that classes should have different strengths, so Wolf, if you approve, then I would like to propose the following - I will compile Witch's, numpydumpty's and my own suggestions then pass them to you to relay to the balance team. No one has disagreed with our posts and they seem to have received a lot of popularity, and they are all aligned with the philosophy of improving class identity and balance.

Do you agree with this Wolf?
No need to compile anything that is posted here unless you really want to. There is a lot of good idea's and valid complaints. I'm hoping more people chime in and the conversation continues. It is not as simple as just following three peoples suggestions, although there were definitely good points in my opinion in those posts.
 

Witch

Member
As far as I still rmb from my past gears (Str, Int and Dex) these are the numbers I have gotten with similar gear (different maple leaf/medal only). Hope these numbers can help to estimate how strong some classes are. All of them are without tyrants.

77k Str warrior with 1h sword + shield combo:
Pala: 35b single (ideally 37b if im using a 1h bw that is of similar stats as 1h sword)
Hero: 27b aoe
DW: dont know exactly but less than both 35 single and 27 aoe for sure
DK: never tested personally with a good spear before. Cant give my own personal input but heard from different warriors that they are worst than DW

77k Dex Archer:
WA: 24b (single&aoe)
BM: 22b (Near perfect/very optimized testing with Final Attack Proc)
MM: never tested personally with a good bow before.

Pirates:
74k Str Pirate:
TB: 24b single. 20b aoe? (Cant rmb the aoe exactly but as far as I can rmb, its in the 20b~21b range at most)
Bucc: 22b single. (No maple leaf)
73k Dex Sair:
25b single.

78k int mages:
BW: 24b combination of both the aoe and single skill nuke
IL: 20b aoe
FP: 27b single
Bishop: >20b single. IIRC its 22b.


Suggestion:
Personally I feel like these should be the numbers model IF we assume that I get to test these classes again with the same gear after said balance patch and also the ability for us to inter trade Tyrants so that we can have mains in different area for different contents. Also, I tried to make these suggestion with the intention of how future or past bosses will be and not solely just Kerb.

Warriors
Paladin: 31b single (Just a single dpm niche class for current content for people trying to do Kerb as fast as possible)
Hero: 25b aoe (Good aoe, superb crash ultilty)
DW: 26b single, 22b aoe (Similar single to Hero aoe, lower than DK aoe due to the longer range and versatility to both single&aoe. Vera endgame farmer for Warrior)
DK: 28b aoe (Good both single and aoe but shorter range in comparison with a less effective support) *Personally Im not very sure on how to balance or what numbers to give DK if I compare this number to other classes I suggested below*
Aran: 29b aoe?

This allow warriors player to choose to play whichever class they 'prefer'. Such as farming on DW or whatever classes that their party requires them. Be it a single, aoe or crash depending on the boss.

Archers
WA: 25b single&aoe (Good aoe, SE as ultility, Vera endgame farmer for Bow classes)
BM: 29b single (Shit aoe, best single for Archer still with SE as utility)
MM: 27b single, 23b aoe (Similar to role of DW in Warrior Branch (all rounder and farmer), but yet slightly different as compared to WA to give niche and diversity and encouraging xbow players)

Pirate
TB: 25b single, 21b aoe (Basically remains relatively the same since they will be the best Vera farmer/Best aoe hitbox)
Assuming Bucc will not be getting any utility through Time Leap and Speed Infusion changes; and no aoe
Bucc: 32b single.
This will mostly means that for endgame contents whereby any slight increase in DPM is required. Any Str pirate main will farm on TB and boss on Bucc.

Sair is in a very unique position since it is the only Dex pirate. We ought to give him some sort of farming abilities as any Dex pirate main will eventually wish to be able to farm on it. Moreover, I recently found out that Sair is able to bait Kerb through using Octo pet summon. This can provide a good party utility.
Sair: 28b single. (A high single with ultility might seem broken but take note that if Sair is the bait, the dpm will be shit)
Some improvement in any of Sair mobbing skills to make it viable to farm at Vera (Make it similar to those aoe skills that current KoC have?)

Mage
Mages are very balanced within themselves. As you can tell, my suggestion mostly revolving in nerfing warrior general DPM and increasing others job to bridge the current gap of Paladin/Hero and other classes to improve more diversity room. What can be done to mages can be following:
10% increase DPM across all mages be it single/aoe to match closer to other improved classes.
OR
100% of excess int after capping 2nd codex added as MA instead of the current 50%.

Thief
I have not play them personally but IF I were to assume the numbers model as mentioned above are applied.

NL: 27b single. (Higher DPM single due to lack of aoe versatility but yet lower Pala/Bucc and even Sair due to ability to change to NW and taunts)
The goal is to give NL some sort of Vera farming and make the relationship between NL and NW similar to TB and Bucc
NW: 32b single.

Shad will be the unique all rounder that is similar to how MM/Sair achieve it position in the Archer Dex Branch/Pirate Dex Branch
Shad: 27b single. 23b aoe.

I made very bold assumptions and numbers here and there. However, personally I feel like this general numbers/ranking them down the DPM list is an important steps in achieving whatever class diversity. Feel free to comment more on each individual jobs too!
 
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boellie

Member
First post on the forums, but I had to give an opinion about the class balances. I have been playing for ~1 month 2 weeks and there hasn't been any sign of class changes during the period of that. Players have been actively discussing it either on discord or in-game chat, Wolf even states that daily are private discussion between 1 and 2 hours about it. That should be an eye opener for the staff to start making changes.
There are a few options that can be done to satisfy both the player base and the staff to work towards the closest to perfect balance between classes, we can't all expect every single class to be the farmer & bosser. What has previous been stated by Bude/Alpha/Witch is that every class ( Thief/Mage/Warrior/Archer/Pirate) should have atleast 1 farmer 1 bosser and 1 all-rounder. What I would like to see is that every weapon typ to have that option, but that is going to take a lot more time and effort.

My point with LoL was directing towards Meta shifts and pointing that perfect balance is not possible. The "Meta" right now revolves around veracent/kerb and there will be some underpreformers and overpreformers. The goal is bringing them as close to center as possible. I have also stated, i agree there is some improvements that can be made. It should also be noted i was not directing this towards you or anyone in particular. This is just the voice i heard from the community as a whole New players -> End game players, no one in specific.
You have sated previous that you were in a WoW guild raid, this means you should have had plenty of experience with "Meta" around the latest tier of content being released. After a big release like that, the staff/devs of the game are watching closely on how the numbers are on the end game bosses, in this case Kerb for the Windia players. If the staff/devs see some classes being stacked in WoW they would nerf it the very next patch to make it more balanced. I don't have the exact time on release of Kerb, but what I have noticed is that most groups use 3-5 paladins, 1 hero, 1 WA or 1 other classes.

Doubling back to your WoW point there was a time when i was raiding in a top 10 guild and to progress you played classes that the raid called for, not what you enjoyed playing.
I'm not agreeing with this statement. You can't compare WoW to Windia but not cause they are different games, but on the fact that WoW had millions of people playing vs the ~200-250 active players at all times. Yes you can be assigned to a certain roll, but a lot of players here are not going to give up their favorite class for the fact that the game is not balanced right now.


Here are some insights in what I would think are good changes to the game, so the player base is bigger for Kerb and farming Vera/RTO.

Thief Classes

Nightlord - Stay as is, don't need a buff right now. They can farm Vera & be concidered a taunt mule. Which seems fine to me.

Nightwalker - This should be the best class singletarget for claw users. Right now their damage is 500% with penta throw where NL's quad throw = 720%.

Possible change: - Buff Penta throw by 60%-70% (tool tip)
- Give them same base crit as NLs.

Shadower - Make this the AoE farming class that thiefs are missing in Vera.

Possible change: - Give their Boomerang Step AoE so they can hit 2 rows (map wise)
- Look into the scaling Att/LUK ( if that isn't happening maybe give them 900% damage (tool tip) or extra line on the ability )
- Up their base crit aswell.

Warrior Classes

Hero - Keep as is, they are in the middle of the pack when it comes to damage and give Crush.

Paladin - Right now only class that can gear fastest towards kerb. Nerf them slightly so people can't get 30b dpm ( effective 24b ) with decent gear.

Possible change: Nerf Heaven's Hammer by 50%-100% damage on tooltip. ~roughly 8%-16% damage reduction

Aran - No idea myself, haven't seen one play endgame so far. Must mean that something isn't working for them right now. A lot of people play the 'afk farming' classes where you have to hold down 1 button instead of spamming attack.

Dark Knight - Like Witch/Bude has pointed out. The best geared DK right now is at 24b dpm ( effective 18b ). This is unacceptable when it comes to singletarget. Given they have FMA shouldn't make them not usable singletarget.

Possible change: - Add extra row of damage to Crusher ( ~25% damage increase )
- Increase their base crit chance
- Give beholder increased 15% attack speed and more W.att than 40

Dawn Warrior - Keep as is, don't think warriors need a 3rd singletarget class

Archer Classes

Wind Archer
- Keep as is, they are in a good spot both singletarget and AoE

Marksman - Garbage right now, everything MM can do a WA can do better. You can chooce to make them the farming class of archers or the singletarget by buffing either snipe or piercing arrow.

Possible changes: - Buff Snipe ( don't know how much % they are missing to be concidered decent singletarget)
- Buff piercing arrow ( either extra line or 100% more tooltip damage )

Bow Master - You're correct that it is complete shit right now. It is ~20% damage behind WA singletarget right now and AoE is non excisting

Possible changes: - Buff hurricane by 50% tooltip, if you do this there is no other changes to be needed. It will make it so BMs are the singletarget of the bow users.

Pirate Classes

Thunder Breaker
- Keep as is, they doing fine for both bossing pre kerb and they are the best farmers in the game right now when it comes to Vera

Corsair - Completely false what you are stating. I don't think they are in a good spot right now.

Possible change: - Make it that they are the support class with Homing Beacon be party wide. I think 15% should be the extra damage the party should be doing.
- Besides the supporting also increase their singletarget by ~50% tooltip
- Or increase their base crit

Buccaneer - Never seen one, maybe the reason because of it is that TB is doing everything better.

Magician Classes

F/P Mage: Best singletarget class of the mages, but it isn't enough to be concidered usefull with decent gear to help out at kerb.

Possible change: - Up their mastery by 10%-20%
- Let the scaling be better with INT

I/L Mage: Best mage FMA, don't think there needs to be any changes here.

Bishop: Horrible right now, only thing they are good for are HS mules.

Possible change: - Witch pointed out give HS also drop change increase, might be something to look into. Maybe 20% increased drop chance.

Flame Wizard: Keep as is, don't think they need any changes. Both good at FMA and bossing ( up till kerb )
 

Wolf

Game Master
Moderator
Thank you for all the feedback guys really good stuff! Some things i want to clarify that are being taken out of context.

The LoL analogy was not a 1:1 comparison between games i clearly understand they are different. My point was directing towards there being "meta" in Windia. I am definitely in agreeance that there are some classes that cannot compete in some content that need to be looked at.

Also my response to WoW was pointing towards progression (early in specific). People will bring what classes are required to kill the boss. Even with extremely precise balance some classes will stand a little bit ahead of others. In early progression this is really exacerbated because you are killing new content with old gear. Eventually you get to a point where you can start bringing other classes. Yes, people are abusing paladins (Which yes might possibly need to be looked at receiving some small changes), and yes i think it is annoying that content is being cheesed. I would rather see a big spread of classes and possible restriction on class stacking.
 

shavit

/dev/null
Administrator
This thread has a massive amount of suggestions. I can't implement them all but there's a fair amount of suggestions here which do seem good (and it seems like the community likes them as well) so I will add them to the upcoming update.

Approving
 
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