Approved Buff Thief Class

Flager

Member
Hello guys,
I just tested Shadower with same gear of my NL with SE+Narc.
I have basically everything around 8* except wep, sylph ring.
On my NL I have around 25.5B DPM, I transfered my gear, including tyrants to test on Shadower and got a decept wep and shield to test, 650att 802luk Dagger, 183att 522Luk Shield.
My NL got 2501 att, Shadower got 2792 att.
My Shadower without Leaf and Medal near 70k stat I tested 16.7B DPM, I tried to test B-Step to farm at Vera, its 4-5 hits and B-Step has a litle delay so not that usefull to farm.
I'm one of the top NL at the server, xKaoX is stronger than me but even him isn't over 30b DPM while the other warriors get over 30b DPM easily.
Don't it's fair for thief class to be this weakened, NL is basically a taunt mule at the moment and I don't see any1 playing Shadower in the game.

Please post your thoughts about this, if you agree or not with me.
Thanks.
 

Boii

Member
I agree.
To be honest I started as a shadowed and still am loving this class very much...but unfortunately it is one of the weakest as you said above. Can't compete with warriors sigh can't even reach NL's damage with the same gear!
This class does need a buff (not saying bring DB to the server or maybe do) it will make a big of a change..
 

Wolf

Game Master
Moderator
Shadower could have decent farm options and decent single and NW could be the thief farmer i wouldn't personally mind that. Buffing NW farm would also buff their AOE so they would shine at Zak/HT. Although would need to nerf their penta star atm as it's currently better than quad.
 

Tyranitar

Member
From what i understand, the majority of luk players are extremely weak barring a certain individual. Luk classes in general could maybe use a really small buff but I don't think they are as weak as you think they are. Maybe you could try funding your NL more to get a more accurate dpm test as from the above few replies, your equipment seems to be seriously lacking.
 

Wolf

Game Master
Moderator
From what i understand, the majority of luk players are extremely weak barring a certain individual. Luk classes in general could maybe use a really small buff but I don't think they are as weak as you think they are. Maybe you could try funding your NL more to get a more accurate dpm test as from the above few replies, your equipment seems to be seriously lacking.
The problem is how they scale. It's also extremely annoying to have to take SE mule with you otherwise you lose like 40% damage. Also i do not think the top 3 NL are that much weaker comparative to other top 3s.
 

Flager

Member
This thread is about Thief Class, not other Classes, and atleast you guys over 30b DPM.

I don't see point in upgrading tyrants to 15* if Thief Class stays this weak.
Most ppl who start on NL quit to play other class, I decided to fund other classes but not sell my luk gear.
I would like that NL gets what he deserves, to be one the strongest single target in game but atm it's just a taunt mule.
Shadower have nice skills to play around but they are probably the weakest class in game.

And what you think about the DPM difference from NL to Shadower? Whole Thief Class Needs Buff.

I like the idea of buffing NW farm and keep NL as the single. Shadower needs buffs that makes it worth to play them.
 
i mean being good aint cheap tho. i think there should be a buff to all thief classes as they are weak - nothing major, maybe a rework in formula or a slight boost in crit damage maybe? (just throwing out random ideas). but if you tryna be good, you cant be cheap - you not gonna get no where getting mad cause the guy wont take 40% off a/w for you ;)
 

Tyranitar

Member
NL and NW scales the best with tyrant equips due to their lower WA. It can be argued that NL scales less as well after 77k stat, due to being unable to spec into a secondary stat, but 77k stat without a secondary weapon is considered end game and I don't think more than one luk player has even reached that point.

Based on Flager's dpm and Watk, if he were to max his codex, which most top 3 players have already done, and match his Watk sufficiently to 2.9k (amount based on Witch's Watk and calibrated for low claw Watk), he would be dealing about 31b dpm. The extrapolation of this data have been derived empirically and theoretically (based on the guide I posted on forums).

In addition, the top NL has been dealing over 700b damage on kerb with 4-5 mins left on the timer, exceeding what mages and archers could do. This goes to show that luk classes are actually the 2nd in dpm, behind str classes.

However, luk classes could still do with a small buff due to the lack of utility, as compared to SE, and lack of farming capabilities, as compared to mages FMA. I do not think that luk classes are as weak as you think they are, it is just that the luk players are severely weaker than their other counterparts.

And "This thread is about Thief Class, not other Classes, and atleast you guys over 30b DPM.", if you are complaining about how weak a class is, it is only logical to make comparisons to another class.
 
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Wolf

Game Master
Moderator
The reason they do alot of kerb is their up-time. Which definitely is a big variable for them. NL almost never catch any stuns at all.
 

Tyranitar

Member
Is effective dpm on the end game boss not the most accurate representation of the bossing capabilities of a class? especially in this thread
 
I agree I feel like shadowers are quite weak in bossing or mobbing in comparison to other jobs. They don't really have anything they excel at and feel lackluster currently :/
 

Chronicle

Member
Night Lords - Great mobility and uptime, due to their ability Shadow Shifter. Has Taunt for wacky drop rate (in theory), and Alchemist for potion uses. Has Meso Up, to increase farmed mesos (It's a 50% increase). Can act like a 'crash', nullifying any Magic/Weapon Defence buffs, casted by Bosses (no, not Damage Reflect or Magic/Weapon Cancels). All this and still good/average DPS. Due to it's raid contribution (makes Taunt nothing you should ever sacrifice), I don't think they need a buff.

Night Walkers - Great mobbing potential, using the multiplatform skill Shade Splitter, but can never compare to TB or Mages. Also the only KoC having Hero's Will. Due to it's counterpart being very useful in raids, I do not think Night Walkers need any further buff.

Shadowers - Can agree they might need to be buffed for either Mobbing or Bossing. But personally, and due to it's other Class Thief Role (Night Lord) being mostly a bosser, I'd like to see Shadower being able to farm Veracent at some stage -cough- Sudden Rain skill -cough-. We're yet to see a 'decked out' Shadower, doing animation cancellations, and multi-procing Assassinate damage, with the use of a specific macro/sequence/movement. Also the '60%' meso drop upon player hit (Pickpocket) may not be that significant, as I do not think it's a true value, and only seems to drop 200 mesos each proc, at lv20 ability - also not collected with Personal Pet Vacuum active.


It sure is annoying being dependent on other party skills, like Sharp Eye and Holy Symbol. But wasn't this suppose to be a game of community, where players can always bring something to the table?
I mean, most if not all classes benefit from Sharp Eye's damage increase. Some more than others, but you cannot reflect that on a Class performance.
I can name at least 2 Class Roles that bring nothing to the table, and went from being very good to very poor with some of the 'tweeks' made to them. Both of them Warriors. Both of them unplayable and made people quit.
But that's not what this thread is about.

To summarize, if I can:
Thieves are very good, and bring a lot abilities to the squads.
You need to stop comparing these classes to the top DPS classes, namely Paladin and ?Hero, when those 'Top 3' bring nothing else but raw DPM.
You need to stop asking for a class that is, otherwise great, to be the holder of every single power, skill, buff and dildo, to go and f*ck everything from behind.
I'm sorry if thieves make you feel less of a player due to 'low DPM', but don't ignore the fact that you're always required in a squad.

Cheers ~
 

Alpha

Member
Night Lords - Great mobility and uptime, due to their ability Shadow Shifter. Has Taunt for wacky drop rate (in theory), and Alchemist for potion uses. Has Meso Up, to increase farmed mesos (It's a 50% increase). Can act like a 'crash', nullifying any Magic/Weapon Defence buffs, casted by Bosses (no, not Damage Reflect or Magic/Weapon Cancels). All this and still good/average DPS. Due to it's raid contribution (makes Taunt nothing you should ever sacrifice), I don't think they need a buff.

Cheers ~
Honestly, TLDR besides the first paragraph, but i would not call nl good/average dps. I would say they are basically only better than aran, dk, bucc, and shad, which are literally just meme classes at this point.
 

Wolf

Game Master
Moderator
Night Lords - Great mobility and uptime, due to their ability Shadow Shifter. Has Taunt for wacky drop rate (in theory), and Alchemist for potion uses. Has Meso Up, to increase farmed mesos (It's a 50% increase). Can act like a 'crash', nullifying any Magic/Weapon Defence buffs, casted by Bosses (no, not Damage Reflect or Magic/Weapon Cancels). All this and still good/average DPS. Due to it's raid contribution (makes Taunt nothing you should ever
sacrifice), I don't think they need a buff.
Meso up is essentially useless NL solo farm less efficient and it wouldn't even stack up considering. They would not be used as a mule either i doubt anyone farming is going to want to mule meso up along side SE. If i understand shadow meso it is also useless as it is not 100%? Alchemist does absolutely nothing for you, who isn't using power elixer?

They have great up-time but they scale awful. Extremely min max late game class at the moment and even then they still don't quite stack up. NL is not a class for someone who isn't able to play 16 hours a day and cog hundreds of each equipment to get the best possible god equip.

TLDR, can they be strong, yes they can very strong in some cases. Although they require a ton more funding than most other classes.


Night Walkers - Great mobbing potential, using the multiplatform skill Shade Splitter, but can never compare to TB or Mages. Also the only KoC having Hero's Will. Due to it's counterpart being very useful in raids, I do not think Night Walkers need any further buff.
Yes has a great kit but currently it does no damage so in return they are terrible farmers. NW right now are actually stronger than NL although i'd like to see them more geared towards AOE to stop the contention between class identity NW:NL.

Shadowers - Can agree they might need to be buffed for either Mobbing or Bossing. But personally, and due to it's other Class Thief Role (Night Lord) being mostly a bosser, I'd like to see Shadower being able to farm Veracent at some stage -cough- Sudden Rain skill -cough-. We're yet to see a 'decked out' Shadower, doing animation cancellations, and multi-procing Assassinate damage, with the use of a specific macro/sequence/movement. Also the '60%' meso drop upon player hit (Pickpocket) may not be that significant, as I do not think it's a true value, and only seems to drop 200 mesos each proc, at lv20 ability - also not collected with Personal Pet Vacuum active.
I don't see why they couldn't be balanced bossers not godly in either aoe or single target and still beable to farm seeing they are the only dagger thief. Also i have played a shadower to test playing them to utmost efficiency and they still aren't great. Who wants to put in all that effort to play a class when it simply does not compete.



To summarize, if I can:
Thieves are very good, and bring a lot abilities to the squads.
You need to stop comparing these classes to the top DPS classes, namely Paladin and ?Hero, when those 'Top 3' bring nothing else but raw DPM.
You need to stop asking for a class that is, otherwise great, to be the holder of every single power, skill, buff and dildo, to go and f*ck everything from behind.
I'm sorry if thieves make you feel less of a player due to 'low DPM', but don't ignore the fact that you're always required in a squad.

Cheers ~
The only abilities a thief brings to the squad is taunt and they have flash jump. Although teleport is not a factor in keeping mages weak so neither should flash jump. Also forgot to mention Smoke might be useful, but idk shadowers are so terrible i'm not sure this would make much of a difference. Their uptime is bound to be awful based on how long their animation is etc.

TLDR it is very telling how a class is doing based off the number of people playing them.
 

Flager

Member
Chronicle, do you play Thief class at all? In your view NL/NW are amazing and Shadower just needs a litle buff....

So in your view NightLord got nice uptime because Shadow Shifter and it's good for Kerb and CPB, forget CWKpq,Czak,CHt, what matters is CPB and Kerb, right?
NL is weaker on other bosses(CWKPQ,Czak,Cht) with his single target but you probably think it's fair the way it is.

About Meso Up, NL can become a Meso Up mule too, not just a Taunt Mule only, I forgot about that.

Alchemist, who cares if you save 1 more narican when you are at point for CPB/Kerb?

Did you try farming on a NightWalker using Shadow Spliter???


I agree with Alpha, NL is basically better in single target than aran,dk,bucc and shadower and bm. Atleast DK can farm at RTO so there isn't any useless warrior.
*Sorry, forgot Aran is a Warrior*

Anyways, this thread is about Thief Buff and you have to realize that Thief class don't have any farmers like other Classes and are required for Boss to Taunt, not due their DPM.
 
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